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Winners of Hunters Point South lottery are starting to be notified

Hunters Point South building

Feb. 11, 2015 By Christian Murray

Some of the winners of the Hunters Point South affordable housing lottery have been notified and have been called in for an interview, according to the New York Housing Preservation & Development.

HPD said that the tenant selection process is well on its way and that interview letters will be distributed in rounds until all the units are filled.

More than 92,000 people applied for the 924 affordable affordable apartments on offer. The units are in two buildings–one at 1-50 50th Ave.; and the other at 1-55 Borden Ave.

The building located at 1-50 50th Avenue will be a 37-story complex comprised of 619 permanently affordable units, 13,750 square feet of retail space, and a parking garage with approximately 220 spaces.

The 1-55 Borden Ave. building will be 32-stories high comprised of 306 permanently affordable units and approximately 3,000 square feet of retail space.

Councilman Jimmy Van Bramer told members of the Hunters Point Civic Association last night that some of the Hunters Point South lottery winners had been notified.

He said that he had received a call from a lottery winner earlier this week who said that she had been called in for an interview.

The notification period is expected to last for a number of months.

email the author: news@queenspost.com

152 Comments

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Aren Diana

I have been playing the lottery for a very long time,about 12 years now,and i have never find any luck, i thought winning the lottery was divine until i knew you have to work hard before you can hit the lottery, many years of playing the lottery, the biggest amount i have won, was $ 700 , things were so much hard for me and my kids,lottery was my only hope, i tried working hard but all effort was in vain, until i meet my old friend who introduce me to this Africa traditional voodoo doctor who help me to win the lottery,i contacted Dr.Sess via Email, and the instructions was given, i was in shock when the numbers Dr.Sess gave me hit the lottery, and luckily i hit the lottery big, i won £1.000,000,00 and now i am living a good life with the help of Dr.Sess Drgooddiva@yandex.com

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helen

When will the Hunter Point South Commons begin move-ins? Any one was called to sign a lease or preliminary?

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LIC Resident 3

Does anyone know how the waiting list will work? How do you know if you are on it or where you can find it?

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LIC Resident2

The move-in date varies quite drastically between the two buildings on the site and a given floor range. HPS Crossing will be fully ready earlier (smaller footprint, less apartments) BUT even here the top floors won’t be ready until early/mid Sep move-in dates. HPS Commons is much larger and will take longer to complete. The first 4-10 floors should be ready for move-in May-Jul, next 10 floors about Aug-Sep, and the top floors likely sometime in Q4.

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LIC Resident

I was notified today that they have selected my application for the initial review process and have asked for documents you would send for any lease signing. Does anyone have any idea how many people get to this step and get an apartment? Is the move in for all apartments June? Thanks.

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eddie

WOW – i really am concerned – David has done a fairly good job at outlining what is a very logical point and my concern is the direction this country will go bc there are so many people who dont understand the harm of subsidies. its really very simple – lets say there are 100 units, no one knows demand or pricing, assume thats irrelevant, and the bidding for these apartments starts at $1. now if there are less than 100 people the rents may stay fairly low. if these units face the water there may be high demand and the bidding could get nuts.

No lets assume that the 100 units get cut to 40, and the other 60 units are determined by lottery for $1 to a lucky few who qualify only in the fact that they are “moderate income” – do u really think that the rent of the other 40 units wont be more than in a free mkt where all prices are set by supply and demand. i cant understand this entitlement mentality. no one has a given right to live on the waterfront in LIC, why not push it to the next step and say that we should put one of these up on park ave. unfair from me to commute in from LIC. i want to live right on park and 69th and since i can afford to pay more than $1000 thats all i should pay?

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Mike

Any project which has breaks for the developer or the tenants are being subsidized by someone. The city must get its real estate taxes ?

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James H

David, think about what you said. You are for a “well administered loan program” but not for affordable housing? To society as a whole, a loan program would be way riskier than building affordable housing. For one, who would get these loans? Would it be a lottery? In that case, we would have the same fairness arguments we have for these affordable housing lotteries. If the government gave everyone who asked a loan or in this case, qualified, wouldn’t that be a riskier investment? To your other point about these renters are not nearly as invested in the community as a home owner, you again gave an extreme example with the burning of the apartment scenario. I know you are smart enough to get the point I was trying to make but again… These people would have a huge incentive to stay put. Huge… As market rate rents go up, theirs would stay relatively flat. In 5 years, think of what a 1 bedroom apartment will rent for in LIC, if today, some are going for $3,100… 5 years from now they will go for maybe $3,500? $3,600? Who knows? Why would anyone living at HPS let go of $2,500 a month one bedroom and in some cases $2,200? Doesn’t make a lot of sense. These peoples’ “walk away threshold” as you called it, will be as close to a home owner as it can get without actually owning a home. Meaning, they are there for the long haul, invested in the community. I would argue a home owner has more of an incentive to leave in 5 years than an HPS renter since a home owners’ property would have appreciated significantly in that time frame and they would stand to make a good profit if they sold. Given that the trend of rapidly rising property values in LIC continues of course. A renter would have no incentive to leave the community in 5 years because rents all over the city would be higher than they are today. Even in so called “low income areas”… I think your issue isn’t with affordable housing, or government handouts since you are for a loan program, but with affordable housing in a prime location, i.e., the waterfront. Maybe you bought at the Powerhouse and these buildings are blocking your city views? If that’s the case, I would be upset too.

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David

You know what James, you’re right. You raised some decent points here. I guess I never thought of it that way.

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Fight if you must.

I am not David, nor winner or anyone else who previously commented

Winner your insults are not only unfounded and unintelligent but your violent comments commanding others to commit suicide are concerning. I prefer my neighbors to be neighborly, not to cause me concern for their mental stability.

Again, you won your lottery. Take a deep breath and a step back.

Thank you David for the (albeit somewhat boring) highly educational, lesson in economics

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Winner

You fool. I am from LIC but I have been living a few stops further in Sunnyside and paying more than what I will pay at HPS. So I did move because LIC was not affordable. But enough is enough. I’m not gonna keep doing it every time my lease is up. Even in Sunnyside the rents are 100-200 dollars up from last year. I like my old neighborhood. I know lots of people there old and new, I found the love of my life and I’ve got great friends and look forward to making more in my new home no matter how poor they are. I’m not gonna look down at the person paying a thousand dollars less than me for their low income studio as you do. They’re paying at a rate they afford to for their income and I’m ok with that. It’s not coming out of my pocket.

I won the lottery So im not moving. Deal with it or jump in front of the 7 train.

Seriously. DO IT!!! You’re boring as Fxxxxxxck! All you talk about is value in numbers. But you bring nothing to the table other than your wallet. Useless. Uninteresting. Hideous. Do you ever ask yourself what your purpose is? Have you impacted anyone’s life but your own in a positive way? Doubt it. You can end it all. Just open your high rise apt window and jump. You won’t be missed.

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Winner

Lol. So he’s autistic and has multiple personality disorder. Creating multiple names for himself. I never said autism is a bad thing. People with autism lack empathy have very narrow ways of thinking about things but are usually smart in other areas.

Did you not tell me earlier that I ‘need to increase my meds”? Even though you dont know me and I’ve never been on any mood altering meds. So making light of folks with mental illness is ok. And making fun of those who earn less by trying to shame them and say the good money they’re paying is not good enough? A handout is free. This isn’t free and it doesn’t affect your life so it’s pretty sad that you’re up into the wee hours on a blog arguing about it. You must be lonely. I bet nobody likes you not even your doorman because you’re a gigantic materialistic tool. I feel bad for any server that has to wait on you in a restaurant. You’re probably a huge pain in the a$$ and chew with your mouth open while you snap your fingers to get her attention.

I would never switch places with you. I like having friends, love, and positive experiences. I like not having everyone I know say awful things behind my back because of how horrible I am to be around. That must really suck for you. You suck as a human and you suck at life. Why do you bother to go on living?

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Fight if you must.

Unlike your previous insults which only took weight away from your arguments, now you have crossed the line. Autism is not an insult. It is a developmental disorder and happens to be a trait of the poor child taken from our neighborhood not two years ago.

You have already won your lottery, enjoy your subsidised apartment and please refrain from making unintelligent comments.

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How dare you!

Autistic parents everywhere have now been offended by you. How dare you attempt to turn a developmental disease into an insult. Your arguments lost sq weight when you resorted to calling others names, but to try to insult someone by calling them Autistic is not only uneducated, but disgusting. Enjoy your handout, you clearly do not possess the brain power to make a salary worthy of market rate rents. Hope your parents never sell, you will need a place to live.

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How dare you!

Autistic parents everywhere have now been offended by you. How dare you attempt to turn a developmental disease into an insult. Your arguments lost weight when you resorted to calling others names, but to try to insult someone by calling them Autistic is not only uneducated, but disgusting. Enjoy your handout, you clearly do not possess the brain power or common decency to make a salary worthy of market rate rents. Hope your parents never sell, you will need a place to live.

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Winner

Who’s whining? I didn’t complain about the gentrification. I just wish we were getting more quality people. My family owns here and never plans to sell.

And you see things as black or white without thinking outside the box that why you don’t get my point about value. I said value is a matter of opinion TO ME. What some idiot is willing to pay means nothing to me. If it has good energy, if it’s clean, if living there makes me feel good, is it spacious, safe, all those things make a home valuable. Overall resident happiness should determine value. How’s the turnover? Stuff like that. Think long term and big picture. We are human beings bot machines.

I don’t generate the value required to make it on my own? Well, Im working my way up. Should we all make your salary? Would that make you feel better? Perhaps I’ll get there in 5 years but this is where I’m at right now. Most people earn my salary and do just fine anywhere else.10 years ago, I might still have a Savings acct with my current salary. Salaries aren’t keeping up with inflation. Does that mean we should all get up and leave if we can’t afford the out of control cost of living? No! We fix it. We preserve and improve quality of life. Our bodies are computers that you dispose of when they run too slow. Even my boss said her father was able to sustain a family of 8 in queens on a butcher salary. He made a lot less than I do. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for middle class parents in NY.

I feel sorry for you. Maybe you’re autistic
You seem to lack the ability to empathize.

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How dare you!

Autistic parents everywhere have now been offended by you. How dare you attempt to turn a developmental disease into an insult. Your arguments lost their weight when you resorted to calling others names, but to try to insult someone by calling them Autistic is not only uneducated, but disgusting. Enjoy your handout, you clearly do not possess the brain power to make a salary worthy of market rate rents. Hope your parents never sell, you will need a place to live.

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How dare you!

Autistic parents everywhere have now been offended by you. How dare you attempt to turn a developmental disease into an insult. Your arguments lost sq weight when you resorted to calling others names, but to try to insult someone by calling them Autistic is not only uneducated, but disgusting. Enjoy your handout, you clearly do not possess the brain power to make a salary worthy of market rate rents. Hope your parents never sell, you will need a place to live.

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David

It is interesting…you talk about how you determine what value should be, but are unable to make the leap that millions of “you”s putting in their opinion of what value should be is what determines the pricing tolerance of the market. If the rent rate for a unit is not in alignment with the pricing tolerance of the market, then the unit won’t rent (or, in the other direction, you will see a stampede for units like we did for HPS). Ultimately, pricing interventions by the government, which you seem to be arguing for, distort the market by reducing supply (see: NYC real estate market). The Soviet economic failure would be worth familiarizing yourself with as well.

You are not necessarily not generating enough value to make it on your own, just not to live in LIC. You probably could afford rent a few stops further on the 7, but already had an explicative-laden temper tantrum in earlier posts when I suggested that you may need to move out of the neighborhood you were raised in to find affordable housing.

You are right that salaries for labor on the lower end of the pay scale have eroded. This is because the value of their labor has declined, between automation, globalization, and immigration. I don’t think inflation is the culprit, since it has largely remained at around 2% for the past decade or two. The City is indeed becoming less affordable, but the City is an arbitrary geographic designation unless, as I noted above, you consider yourself a serf bound to the land. Otherwise, accept a longer commute from a new community. And think positive: the love of your life or the best friends you’ll ever make may be in that new community.

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Winner

Think positive people. The love of your life or some of the best you’ll ever make may be moving into HPS.

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Winner

I’m paying less that the value of my apt according to whom? Value is also a matter of opinion to me because the process involved in determining value is a joke.

The studio is a 500 Sq foot space put together with shoddy materials that look pretty but don’t last long. In zone A of a hurricane path. The location and the amenities are about all that’s worth it. I don’t think it’s worth what they’re charging market renters and even at my rates I’m still getting ripped off. Even my conservative friends in other states agree. But my life and my career are here now so here is where I stay. Until I decide to go elsewhere for MY sake. You also have the facts wrong. Walk the halls of each of those buildings. It’s not a conspiracy. HPS will be way more at capacity than TF cornerstone or Rockrose.

I’m not entitled, nor am I some “look at me” millenial. I’m a generation Y born NYer, never ask anyone for anything, never been on any form of public assistance not even financial aid. And somehow I’m entitled because I’d like a place to live that’s affordable? Because I’d like to go back to the days where “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps” did not.mean living paycheck to paycheck and not being able to have a savings account the way I was taught to?

David, take a nap. Queens is already gentrified. But it won’t be exclusive. If you don’t like it move to Beverly Hills.

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Jamie

Are you saying that people who get financial aid for college or receive some form of public assistance are entitled?

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Winner

No. I don’t think that in general I’m actually very understanding and I understand that some people help sometimes. I think people who abuse it are entitled. Welfare. Not financial aid.

Despite the occasional abuse, I would never try to take away what little is given to people in poverty. Unlike David, I’m not pathetic and I don’t go around acting like people should thank me for paying my taxes.

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David

Clearly you need to brush up on the concepts of the market and other basic principles of a capitalist economy. The value of an apartment is based on what people will pay for it. Simple concept, no?

The rental buildings are indeed full, in that almost all the units are rented. Now, people may not be like living in them every night, eg, because they travel for business or split their time between two or more places, but that is not relevant. People physically occupying a unit every night is not needed. The lease is signed and paid for, therefore the unit is occupied.

Affordable housing is not a right. Housing is earned through economic activity, and you are clearly not generating the value required to be able to make it on your own. You may have never have been on public assistance, but you are now. Yes, Winner, being in affordable housing is functionally no different than being on welfare or in Section 8 housing. The only difference is in the amount of the handout you are getting, the directness of the wealth transfer, and the veneer on the program.

So enjoy your handout and try not to whine more about gentrification. You may think Queens is gentrified already, but this is just the beginning. I would not be surprised to see a doubling of property prices again in LIC within the next 5 years, especially with the progress around Court Square and the number of buildings that still need to be razed/developed in Hunters Point.

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wow

“I’m a generation Y born NYer, never ask anyone for anything, never been on any form of public assistance not even financial aid.”

Until now. Congrats on taking a state funded handout.

– a generation X born ny-er who can still state the above, honestly.

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Winner

It’s not a state funded handout!!!!! It’s the equivalent of paying on a sliding scale. Call Related tomorrow. You will see.

I don’t understand why this is so difficult to grasp. It’s so simple. What they lose in monthly rent, they gain in air rights and tax breaks. Taxes that we all pay by working and buying crap. I am not coming to you for my rent check. Sorry. You’re just not that important. Nobody in Williamsburg whines as much about this kind of housing. Literally hundreds of these are already existing and people of various income background exist peacefully together and are good neighbors to each other. But by all means,continue to be pathetic and miserable. It’s your life.

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Winner

You are extremely presumptuous. No, I actually work in the private sector and earn a middle class salary which used to be doable in this Queens until about 12 years ago.I pay federal, state, city and NY sales tax just like you do. Also, the interviewer from Related was very intelligent and pleasant. He was very careful to verify my background and ability to pay rent on time. I had to provide my 2014 W-2, my last 3 paystubs, a letter from my employer, a reference from my current landlord, my credit history, and additional assets. He said flat out, “Related is not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. They are making a fortune.” Ihave no opinions on unions because most people who work in unions do a job I couldn’t do and in some cases, I feel they’re underpaid for dangerous and mentally trying work. Except for the MTA. They’re grossly overpaid.

There is nothing nuanced about your concepts. I’ve been following along for months as you desperately reach to turn yourself into a victim. So no, I won’t re-read the insane ramblings of a bitter, perpetually single, “ingrate” with no PhD in Economics. I actually work for a living and I don’t have time sort through your narcissistic attempts at belittling people who earn less money than you.

Call it a handout if you want, but you’re not paying for it so get over it. This will enable the middle class to put roots down somewhere instead of having to move every time the “market rate” becomes out of reach in a neighborhood that was once completely unheard of. Queens used to be the place people came to save money. Now Flushing, Queens is trying to charge 1750 for a 1 bedroom in a roach invested pre-war building. No, the “free market” will not sort it out through an increasing supply of market rate rentals and condos. Management companies lie about the vacancy rates to skew the rent prices. The buildings at the waterfront are not at capacity. It’s a flat out lie. They’re lucky if they’re half full. There are greedy condo owners from Saudi Arabia who buy 1 bedroom apts in manhattan to try and flip them for 4.5 million dollars. No one is buying these units at those prices no matter how great the demand is and the foreign sellers still won’t budge on the price. Rentals on Ave D in alphabet city aren’t getting tenants and they still won’t budge on monthly rent prices. How’s that “free market” working out?????

We need to ensure that this city remains a place for everyone. How do you expect lower and middle income jobs to be filled if there are no people living here to fill them? It’s the middle and lower class people moving here that will still be here 10 years from now caring about the community, showing up to community board meetings and getting to know their neighbors. The average market rate renter stays here 2 years max, doesn’t give a damn about the community and looks right through you as you walk by. I say we are way more “deserving”.

As for those who didn’t win this time around, they will get another chance as more mixed income housing is inevitable. Good luck to them!

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Jamie

Myabe the average market rate renter stays here 2 years max because they have also been priced out (I have met a lot of people in this situation). While this is unfortunate, it is the way the NY housing market works when there is a high demand for housing which is in accordance with basic principles of economics.

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David

Winner, you are entitled to you opinions but not your facts. The waterfront buildings are at capacity…maybe a 2-3% vacancy. Now, some of the condos are owned by investors, but these are also rented. Your post is conspiratorial rambling that suggest a need to adjust your medication. Similarly, just because your interviewer was intelligent and capable to do his job does not mean that he has an ounce of insight into finance.

In any case, your ideal of the middle class putting down roots through a wealth transfer program is utopian at best. The reality is that, unless you are continuously demonstrating value in this City, someone hungrier or more willing to push harder will push you out. That is just the way it is, and this is a good thing. Move to Newark if you can’t hack it. I find it nauseating that you expect a magical supplementation of your income to enable you to put down roots where people who are able to pay their own way could be living. Because that is what is happening – you are paying less than the value of your apartment, and that difference is absorbed somewhere else in the economy. I am not belittling those who make less money, just those with the entitlement mentality you have that suggests you should get a medal for showing up.

Face it – Queens is the next area for gentrification. You can complain about people “looking through you” or not wanting to “build the community”, but it kind of reminds me of a dinosaur yelling at an asteroid.

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Winner

No. I shan’t read through a 113 posts to find the insane ramblings of someone without a PhD. You’re a sad pathetic loser and I have no doubt you are as hideous outside as you are inside. Dollars to donuts you are single and will die alone as you deserve.

Those who didn’t win this time around will have the opportunity to win again as more mixed income housing is inevitable and there’s nothing you can do about it. Im grateful for this opportunity and i wish it for everyone who works hard and is underpaid. Ive never won any lottery like this in my life and this will enable me to have a decent commute to work while living in a clean apt in a safe neighborhood. You don’t know.me or.any of these people and you’re out of line to imply we don’t deserve these apts. You don’t deserve friends! And you won’t have any if you ever show your ugly face. People in lower income brackets need places to live and they can’t trust that the “free market” is just going to sort itself out. Management companies rarely ever budge on rent prices unless the building doesnt have a single unit thats rented. Increasing an exclusively market rate housing supply will not fix that. We need market and mixed income all over the city. This will bring the sense of community back to the neighborhood as many of the residents come from communities where people actually give a crap about each other.

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Winner

So I’m moving into HPS Commons in June. My studio apt is $1561 per month. Amenities are 150 a year as they are for anyone else in the bldg. During my interview I asked the person from the RELATED companies if any of this project or the mixed income units are federally funded and he said no. This is totally provided by the private sector. No tax dollars were spent. He also said the market rate units are what they are. If the entire building were only market rate units, the rent would still be the same. Why? Because they know people will pay it. Theyre not charging more to the market rate tenants to make up for what I’m not paying. Call anyone at related. Theyll tell you. So their goes your entire argument about anyone subsidizing David. Suck it! Ingrate!

They’re making plenty from the volume of apts that they were able to build, the commercial space and the steady income from the school on the ground floor of my future home. This project is also about to get even bigger and extend farther out. Related companies are not hurting at all. Neither is anyone else who is paying market rate rent in LIC. After all, they can afford it. If you want my apt because you think I didn’t earn it, that’s fine, let’s switch. But then let’s also switch bank accounts.

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David

You still don’t understand indirect costs that are not accounted for in tax dollars nor do you understand macroeconomic vs microeconomic effects. I doubt the person interviewing you would either, since they are probably the same unfortunates who staff the rental office (you think they would deploy skilled staff for that?). It is like asking the supermarket checkout person about the business’s accounting practices.

Furthermore, you only consider federal vs state/city taxes, so I am going to guess you work for the state in some capacity and don’t pay locality taxes. I guess I should not be surprised about such narrow thinking in that case – you are probably sympathetic to unions as a mechanism for overvaluing labor as well. Anyway, please reread the above posts until these more nuanced concepts about wealth transfer sink in. Or just feel smug that you got a handout you don’t deserve while thousands of others just like you didn’t.

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Jamie

Can you please provide references to substantiate your statements such as “the market rate units are what they are…They’re not charing more to the market rate tenants to make up for what I’m not paying” because my understanding is that market rate rents are higher as a result of these types of 80/20 developments.

Please see the following quote from a New York Times article:
“To make these projects work, developers say, the market-rate rentals have to command top dollar from the day the doors open. Although 80 percent of the apartments can be priced at the upper limits of what developers think the market will bear, they then automatically come under the rent-stabilization system, limiting how much rents can rise each year afterward.” The article can be accessed online at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/realestate/across-the-hall-diversity-of-incomes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.

Please also read the following article with regard to information about the development of Hunter’s Point South which has additional factual referenced information about how this project was financed: http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/083-13/mayor-bloomberg-joins-phipps-houses-related-companies-monadnock-construction-break-ground – “The City collaborated with New York State to help finance the residential buildings, which under the direction of Governor Andrew M. Cuomo, allocated $185 million of tax-exempt bonds for the project. HDC issued $236 million in tax exempt bonds, and HPD provided $68 million in subsidy. Hunter’s Point South is the largest affordable housing development in the Bloomberg Administration’s New Housing Marketplace Plan, a multibillion dollar initiative to finance 165,000 units of affordable housing for half a million New Yorkers by the close of the 2014 fiscal year. To date, the NHMP has funded the creation or preservation of more than 143,300 units of affordable housing across the five boroughs. For every dollar invested by the City, the Plan has leveraged $3.43 in additional funding for a total commitment of more than $21 billion.” (Directly quoted from the link above)

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James H

So you are for tax breaks as long as they benefit you… Ok, you could of just said that from the start. Related is getting tax breaks on the construction of HPS which is building new housing stock by the way. They wouldn’t do these projects if it meant them losing money so we know they are not. Also, the people who will live there on HPS, must have pretty decent jobs at a minimum, meaning they pay their share of taxes as well. So although you claim that people like you are subsidizing the renters at HPS, they can claim they are subsidizing themselves since they pay taxes and are receiving a benefit from the taxes they pay. You get a tax break on your home and you justify it by saying it provides a benefit to the community. Well, these people have the same argument. They now have a more affordable rent, which enables them to stay in the community longer and be invested in its success.

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David

Go and read the comments above, as your assertion about developers’ benefits from tax breaks have been refuted many times. Then tell me what exactly the community gets from importing people who could not otherwise afford to live here that cannot be achieved with market rate renters. I gave many advantages of having home owners vs renters in my post – a position I held when I was a market rate renter, so there goes your “only if I benefit” argument.

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James H

While developers may not get tax benefits they do get other benefits like cheaper construction financing and so on, that would normally raise costs and might impede a project like this. Yet, if developers don’t receive any tax breaks for these types of projects, why do they bid for them? They must still be profitable even without the tax incentive. I think we can agree on that. As for the advantages you gave for home ownership, those are mostly advantages to the individual, not the community. What does the LIC community get from you owning a home? You had two points in an earlier post which were (a) people were invested in their communities, which is fine but to say that renters aren’t invested in their communities is inaccurate. By the way, your rental car comparison was a poor one since people don’t treat their rental homes, which they will live in, most cases for at least 12 months, the same as they would a rental car, which people may use for a couple of days. Your other point was (b) it provides a hedge against infaltion and allows for retirement savings. Again, valid point, but that benefits the home owner, not the community. Now, what does the community get from the influx of people living in HPS? For one, all the local businesses will make more money. As much as you want to say that the people who will live in HPS can’t afford the market rate rents, therefore, they won’t be able to afford going to the businesses in the area, that is false. Some of the savings from their “affordable” rent will inevitably go to local businesses. At the very minimum, the local Duane Reade will be glad these new tenants are around.

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David

I think it is safe to say that developers build in tax benefits when the answer RFPs for any project like HPS, so we don’t realy have the data to understand the profitability of developing a complex like HPS in the absence of tax breaks. I would, however, consider posts by Jamie in this thread to be of interest on the topic.

The barrier for an owner to move vs a renter is much different. That alone ensures that owners will take a more active interest in their community over renters – they need to protect their investment. The underlying logic of the rental car still applies. If there is a problem with a rental unit, it isn’t the renter’s problem. If there is a community challenge, it isn’t the renter’s challenge. He will just move. Nothing motivates people like having their own money on the line. Community interest is where the inflation hedge ties in too. Owners are less likely to get priced out of their communities, again stabilizing the community and encouraging social investment in it.

Enhancing retirement savings is in a nation’s long term interest, as it reduces the load on social services in retirement. That is why 401ks and IRAs are designed as tax-deferred accounts – to encourage people to support themselves in their old age. You are right that this is not a unique benefit to a given community, but it is also a national-level set of laws.

I did not suggest that HPS residents would not be able to afford to patronize local businesses. I did make the point that, if the goal were to support local businesses, that there is nothing that an HPS beneficiary would bring to the table that a market rate renter could not.

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James H

David, But wouldn’t the benefits of home ownership in terms of staying in the community, not getting priced out and actually caring for the community since you are financially invested apply for the tenants at HSP? They will have affordable rents that can’t be raised at market rate levels and allow them to stay in the community. They will also be financially invested since they would want to keep their affordable rent for as long as possible. They won’t just walk away from their affordable rent like a market rate renter would. To that point, if you foresee yourself staying in an apartment for a long period of time, chances are you will take care of the unit and a problem with the unit is something you would want to fixed and would care about. If you are staying for a long time, a community problem is a problem this renter would care about. Your car rental example is too basic of a comparison. Not suffering through market rate rent increases year after year will allow them to save, especially if those people can increase their wages while their rent stays basically flat. These people will essentially be getting some of the benefits of home ownership you described above, which you say are good for the community. So how can you say they don’t provide any benefit to the community? I won’t argue if this is a handout or if it is fair since I already know your stance on that and your opinion won’t change, regardless of what I say. However, I would disagree that they provide no benefit to the community. That is just not true, even by your standards of what benefits to the community are.

David

James, an interesting line of thinking, but I am not sure I entirely agree with you.

HSP tenants are not financially invested in their apartments to anywhere near the same degree s owners. If the apartment were to burn down, they are out whatever the difference between market rent and their rent was, ie, their handout. A homeowner is out a large part of his investment, depending on the specifics of his homeowners insurance.

Now you are right that the gravy train may be too good to have the same “walk away” threshold as a pure market rate renter. I am not sure that that modest stabilization is worth the cost of the affordable housing program. I think a loan guarantee program that is well administered would be a better use of funds, acknowledging that the HPS a renters would need to live in lower income areas.

Just to clarify, I am not saying HPS residents provide no benefit to the community. I am saying their benefit is comparable to a market rate renter’s benefit. Your argument may suggest that they have a modestly increased benefit due to community stabilization, but I doubt that benefit balances out against their net cost. And I still have a hard time with the ethics of a lottery based system designed to generate a windfall for a small cohort of renters.

Sandy

I think there is a huge difference between tax breaks that are offered to everyone like the mortgage deduction vs. housing lotteries (only offered to a small percentage of the population). I think the housing lotteries are unfair.

I have worked long hours for different agencies over the past years and was struggling to pay my market rate rent for a 1 bedroom when I lived in Manhattan and barely had a free moment to spare. Some of my neighbors were fortunate enough to get 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom apartment via the 80/20 program and also had better schedules like 9 – 5 jobs, giving them time to enjoy their life. Even though their rent was below market rate, I am sure they didn’t exactly have a lot of extra money to save either, but definitely had one advantage I did not (time to relax and unwind in a warm bath or watch tv or talk to friends or go to family engagements). In fact, when I wanted to take a vacation through earned vacations days to go to a family wedding for just a few days, my boss frowned on me. I sometimes dreamt that I could get a lower paying job that I liked with more free time and win the housing lottery so I can live in my apartment building rather than the grueling hours of miserable agency life.

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James H

Sandy, housing lotteries are unfair, yet just because the govenrment can’t help every single person in need doesn’t mean they shouldn’t help anyone at all. Since they can’t help every single person, the lottery, although not completely fair, is at least random. Everyone technically has the same opportunity or chance at it.

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Sandy

I don’t think housing lotteries are necessary given that it reaches out to such a small demographic of people. I am not sure what message it sends to society. I grew up in a poor neighborhood and I think I built a lot of character in my life through my struggles and hardships. I have worked extremely hard for everything I have and I think that shaped who I am as a person in a good way. I studied hard in public schools and through my diligence was lucky to be awarded a scholarship to attend an Ivy league institution and then continued to work hard throughout my career and was always highly motivated. Luckily, as a result, I could now live in a safer neighborhood where I feel more comfortable in and hopefully never have to hear gunshot again in my life which is frightening (I am surprised to see the cyberbullying suicide threats in its place, but they are in obviously written by an anonymous person – very disheartening that there isn’t a better screening process for housing lotteries). People are entitled to different opinions and the diversity of people makes the world an exciting place, whether we agree or disagree with others. We don’t have to shame and threaten others because we don’t agree with what they have to say.

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lic girl

I just signed the lease at hps today. It is $2500 for a one bedroom, no water view. while this is below market rate, it is hardly as affordable as most ppl think.

The govt provides tax breaks and benefits to many people. When you buy a house, the govt subsidizes by providing a tax break to the homeowner. I dont see how you can have a problem with affordable rental units, but not tax break for homeowners?

If you think it is not fair for 900 people to get below market rate apartments, maybe you should go to this article and complain about the rich? These billionaires are getting “hangout” from our govt for buying apartment that they don’t even live in.

http://nypost.com/2015/03/09/new-yorks-super-wealthy-pay-less-on-property-taxes/

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David

Tax incentives are intended to drive behavior, ie, to encourage home ownership vs renting. The rationale is that (a) people are then invested in their community and (b) it provides a hedge against inflation to keep people in their homes and allow saving for retirement. Most of the dollars refunded for the mortgage deduction for primary residence interest goes to the 99% since they make up the bulk of the mortgage market. Since rent floats with inflation, rent subsidies achieve nothing except being a handout.

What benefit does society get from you paying below market rent, other than braying online about how your handout isn’t big enough? Ingrate.

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James H

David, just because you don’t agree with the idea of affordable housing, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. If you bought a property and are getting a tax break as a home owner, than you are subsidized as well. Your point about how that subsidy provides a hedge against inflation and all that other BS is irrelevant. If you don’t like handouts, fine, I can respect that. It is your opinion to which you are entitled. Having said that, you can’t go bashing affordable housing as a subsidy and at the same time have a deduction on your taxes because you are a home owner. You either like all subsidies or you don’t. By the way, renters are also invested in their communities, but it is hard to stay invested if the rent increases to the point where it forces you out of the community in 2-3 years.

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David

First, tax breaks are incentives to drive behavior while affordable housing is a hand out. There is a difference between the two, mainly in that society and the recipient get something out of the tax breaks while only the recipient benefits from a handout.

Here is what tax breaks give back. First, tax breaks on construction encourage the building of new housing stock. Affordable units don’t do that. Second, tax breaks on property taxes for new construction help populate an area. Affordable housing does do that too. Third, the mortgage deduction helps to encourage home ownership, which has clear benefits for society over renting, which affordable units encourage. Fourth, there is a relevant point about hedging against inflation, mainly because owners are less likely to be priced out of an area through inflation, stabilizing the community. Finally, the mortgage deduction is available to anyone, not just lottery winners (whiners?). I cannot think of anything affordable housing actually does for society, other than letting a small group of people live in an area they otherwise could not afford. Where is the benefit?

Now, on renting vs owning. Owners are more invested in their community, mainly because (a) they cannot easily pick up and leave and (b) they benefit more than a renter in improving/maintaining their community because they get quality of life as well as a monetary benefit. The monetary benefit is probably the best way to focus anyone’s attention. For comparison, would you treat your car better than a rental?

So, no, there is a huge difference between tax breaks, which are investing in a community, and affordable housing, which allow a small group of people to enjoy a sense of entitlement divorced from financial reality about where they ought to be allowed to live. I am fine with paying for the former, but find it unpalatable to pay for the fantasies inherent to the latter.

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James H

So you are for tax breaks as long as they benefit you… Ok, you could of just said that from the start. Related is getting tax breaks on the construction of HPS which is building new housing stock by the way. They wouldn’t do these projects if it meant them losing money so we know they are not. Also, the people who will live there on HPS, must have pretty decent jobs at a minimum, meaning they pay their share of taxes as well. So although you claim that people like you are subsidizing the renters at HPS, they can claim they are subsidizing themselves since they pay taxes and are receiving a benefit from the taxes they pay. You get a tax break on your home and you justify it by saying it provides a benefit to the community. Well, these people have the same argument. They now have a more affordable rent, which enables them to stay in the community longer and be invested in its success.

Deeeee

Hi, Ive also just been notified by HPS for some final paperwork and an interview. Im also a resident at the Avalon building and i just renewed my lease. If i do get the final approval how do i go breaking my lease w Avalon with out being penalized. They also bumped my rent from $2600 to $3000 for a one bedroom and Im annoyed that they nickel and dime me for everything for example, water, rent insurance and a gym that I never use.

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Wow

Wow! I think this is a wonderful housing opportunity for people from all walks of life. I’m not going to get into the whole “market rate” debacle, but I feel like this will be beneficial to families, the elderly and the disabled. Everyone should have a chance at living somewhere nice. Nicely done HPS

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Jamie

Although this is a wonderful opportunity, it is only offered to a very small percentage of the NY population. It does not appear that applicants are carefully selected and/or screened to determine the best fit. Wouldn’t it be nice to design a program that may offer certain people (ie. a single mother living in public housing the opportunity to get out of the never ending cycle of poverty and give her children the opportunity to improve their circumstances)?

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yikes

To everyone on this thread, yikes.

You are not better than any one else, and you do not deserve a handout just for being you. You chose your profession and the salary that comes with it, or maybe your parents did. Some of us even switched professions when we found our dream jobs to be underpaying or worse yet unsatisfying. It is no one else’s responsibility to fund your dreams, or your crash pad.

To those of you who qualified to apply, best of luck in winning, but just remember those around you who may have missed the qualification by pennies, and may not be thrilled about it, those who missed the qualification by thousands and have trouble reconciling why making a couple thousand more means they have to pay a couple hundred more in rent, those who never would have qualified in a thousand years and are tired of funding everyone else, just because they found a way to “make it” and lastly, how about all of those people who qualified and still couldn’t afford it!

The american dream was founded on hard work and drive and ambition to be better (and make more money). Not living outside of your means and expecting the rest of the state to take care of your excess.

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Why should I

What about the people who moved to Queens from Manhattan because they were trying to live within their means? Why should we continuously go through the same cycle every time a neighborhood becomes too expensive. It’s extremely inconvenient and costly to move every 3 years. And why should we leave a place that makes us happy and where we’re comfortable? Eventually, we’ll run out of places to gentrify in the 5 boroughs, then what? A better solution is ensuring that some apartments remain affordable to enable the capitalist system to continue. You do realize that someone needs to fill these low income and middle income jobs right? And we shouldn’t have to travel from Ronkonkoma to do it after working 10 hrs. It’s not our fault that we’re not paid according to our true value. If you want us to pay market rate, fine, we’ll just start demanding higher salaries so we can do that.

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yikes

I think you should absolutely request a higher wage. I support that wholeheartedly for the professions who keep our society running (teachers, firefighters, etc). I also don’t have a problem with affordable housing, even in “up and coming” or “convenient” neighborhoods. That said, I don’t agree that these units should be in the prime of those locations (waterfront) nor do I agree that they should be “luxury” or at the expense of others who can/choose to afford the same exact real estate at market rates.

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Jamie

I have been in your shoes in my life and understand what you mean. However, life is unfair and the city has become an unaffordable place for a majority of us to live in and life is a struggle. I found myself relocating to LIC several years ago when I was priced out of a rent stabilized apartment in NYC after living there for almost 8 years (interestingly enough, the apartment building had the 80/20 program). My market rate rent increased by over 20% after a 2 year lease for a 1 bedroom apartment and was slightly over 4K. I found out what rent stabilization really meant the hard way. Supposedly, my landlord had given me a preferred rate all the previous years and now was increasing my rent by 4 percent of what the current market rate was for the specific unit I lived in. I was one of the last loyal tenants to be priced out. Luckily, for some of my neighbors who were fortunate enough to be in the 20 percent program and given much lower rents, they did not experience this. I am sure when the tax abatement/incentives expire in the future, they will also be in a predicament. I guess the point is it is best to carefully select your profession based on economic benefits since that is the only way to truly thrive in NY (it is never good to be financially dependent on others in a competitive world).

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2 david the jrkoff

your comments are so stupid. i make a lot of money and i lived here my whole life and have watched idiots like you move into areas that were worthless and let landlords raise prices so high that the only people who can afford are the mega rich who don’t even live in them they live in Europe which means no revenue for all the stores and neighborhood itself. Middle-class run the world and if making 150000 $ isn’t enough to live in ny then things need to change before a real estate collapse. where r u from David ? I’m sure not from here the middle class pay taxes as well and the big buildings would not be built if they didn’t agree with the terms the city placed in front of their owners. The terms are for a reason. i personally think the whole building should be for the middle income because in this shitty state the only people who get over are the rich and the poor i have to go bust my ass everyday to maybe be able to move to long island because you think its cool to grow a beard then to live with a roommate pay 4500 drive up all the rent prices then move back to south dakota and then all the small mom and pop places get taken over by conglomerates and even more tax money leaves the neighborhood and then real estate taxes go up raising your rent even more. the best thing about it is there is a huge company in charge of pushing these ultra cool neighborhoods on idiots who fell for it and now pay 4000 dollars for a studio in bk where the land is contaminated because it used to be a garbage dump and i remember going threw dumbo with my dad watching the hasidic children hopping over rats good luck to you in paying a landlord forever because you think you can afford where you live if you really are middle-class you will never save enough to retire

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Winner

Never you mind. David is a miserable soul and he’s having a toddler tantrum because there’s nothing he can do to stop this. He’s also a punk coward. He wouldn’t dare say this to the face of a municipal worker in the elevator at HPS. He would go like a horse with a broken leg.

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David

Discussing the merits or lack thereof of affordable housing is hardly a toddler tantrum. You can go on and on about how there should be more middle class housing etc., but you will not change my mind.

I would also be more than happy to have the same discussion with an HPS resident in person, and have done so with others I have met in rent modified units. You may be surprised, but it is possible to have a conversation about such programs without resorting to threats of violence. Indeed, you might want to bring up your own propensity for violence at your HPS interview. It speaks volumes to the type of neighbor you might be…

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Winner

If you were my “friend” and you had the audacity to tell me I don’t deserve to have a roof over my head in the neighborhood where I was born because of how much I earn, you would deserve that smack. I’m not saying I would do it. I’m saying you would deserve it. As for not changing your mind, I wasn’t trying to. I don’t give a crap what you think and neither do any of the other applicants. If you try to make life miserable for your neighbors because you’re opposed to their presence, you’ll get slapped with harassment charges.

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yikes

the only one who has threatened violence on this article is you. David never threatened any physical harm that i have read, nor did he say he would make the tenants lives miserable. He has actually been quite pleasant while educating us all on econ 101. I, for one, needed the refresher.

And just because you were born here does not entitle you to anything more than some random transplant from anywhere. Sadly, that’s just not how it works. Would I love to be able to afford my childhood neighborhood? Sure! but it up and gentrified years ago and I can’t afford it anymore. That’s how it goes, no matter where you are. Its a sad fact, but it is just that. FACT.

Jamie

Congratulations! Be glad you won the housing lottery, but remember this opportunity is available only to a small, select percentage of applicants. Do you think you are better than all of the other people who lost the lottery and now may have to relocate as a result even though they are long-time LIC residents?

I am also interested in knowing why you would still want to live in this neighborhood after all of the changes. I have moved here 4 years ago and I liked it a lot more in some ways than I do today. This neighborhood is starting to look like everyone has the same personality (everyone in the rather predictable Canada goose winter coat). Sadly enough, myself included in efforts to stay warm. Most of all LIC residents look like they could show up in casting call for typical New Yorkers in cold temperatures with their Canada goose jackets.

Anonymous visitor

How did we ever get to the point when dipsh!ts like this David and the many thousands of others just like him have taken over this city? I’m not even talking about money and the rising costs of housing. It’s just their pettiness and nastiness that gets me the most. We’ve hit an all-time low in NYC. Who wants to live with people like him? I don’t. And I could give a rat’s ass how high my house is worth. It doesn’t matter if I have to share my space with horrible people like him. I want my old New York City back, not this crap, greedy mean version of it. Honestly, I didn’t think I could get more depressed about the city than I am after reading this thread.

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David

How is it petty or nasty to suggest that no one should get special treatment on their rent? I just don’t get the mentality that living in a neighborhood automatically allows you to expect special treatment as the neighborhood gentrifies. The only want to guarantee that you can stay in a neighborhood long term is to buy a place. Absent that, you are exposed to the rental market which, shockingly, is a market. It is totally the same logic to say that long term Hunters Point residents should get a 20% discount card at local supermarkets, restaurants, and shops. And if this type of system is put in place, someone somewhere has to make up the deficit (see: widgets above).

Sorry the neighborhood is changing around you and you may not be able to afford to stay, but that’s life.

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Winner

No, “that’s life” is not an excuse to push people out of a place where they’ve grown comfortable. I, for one, ain’t doing that sh*t. I’m not going to move every single time my rent increase is unreasonable. Eff that! Im just supposed to shake it iff and say “oh well, guess i have to uproot myself again. Richer folks are coming and i dont deserve to live here anymore.” Screw you! We have the means to keep this city a place for everyone and we should do it whether or not elite snobs like you complain about it. “Just sayin”

David

Winner, no one is saying you don’t deserve to live in LIC. The issue at hand is if you deserve a subsidy to live here in LIC, which you don’t. The fact that THE lack of a subsidy may prevent you (or anyone else) from staying in the neighborhood is irrelevant. That is not being a snob or an elitist – I don’t care what you do for a living if you are my neighbor (provided it is not illegal, of course). It is also is not being a snob or an elitist to suggest that the City should not be interfering with the real estate market or shifting costs to others. If you cannot grasp these concepts, then I am at a loss.

Regardless, what is the big deal about moving? It isn’t like anyone here is a medieval serf bound to the land, and you might find a new neighborhood you like even more. I know I did when I moved to LIC.

Just Sayin'...

The people who seem to be petty (name calling/cursing) or nasty (threatening) here are the ones complaining that the “old New York” is being gentrified.

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David

You missed the irony of Winner doing the virtual equivalent of stomping his feet and holding his breath just down his own thread from accusing me of throwing a toddler tantrum.

Winner

If you can’t grasp that you’re not subsidizing anything even if the city does play a role in the creation of affordable housing, I can’t help you. You seem to think I owe you something. Nobody owes you anything. You sound like a very controlling person always trying to force your opinions down people’s throats. I will not move. Get that through your thick skull. Moving is stressful and a huge inconvenience. If you don’t like the direction the neighborhood is going, you move. You seem like you can afford the hassle. We didn’t ask the developers to put mixed income units on the waterfront. I would have been happy anywhere in the neighborhood. As a member of the community we’ve welcomed new businesses and new residents for the past 20 years. They’re giving back to the community. It’s the right thing to do. Not everyone is a snot who opposes being neighbors with people who earn a little less or even a lot less. This is hands down better than section 8 and gives low income families and opportunity to raise their kids in a safe, vermin free, environment that doesn’t perpetuate poverty. Everyone knows you don’t give a damn about diversity so you can save it. I think you just need to let it go. If you think its unfair, “thats life” or whatever. LoL. Locals are moving in and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.

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yikes

“You seem to think I owe you something. Nobody owes you anything. You sound like a very controlling person always trying to force your opinions down people’s throats.”

Hey pot… it’s the kettle calling… you’re black, nobody owes you anything either.

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David

Winner, I have no idea why you would say I think you owe me something, given that I have never indicated that. I think I was also fairly clear that I don’t care how much people around me make, what they do, or if they have been in the neighborhood since the time that this City was Nieuw Amsterdam. I only object to the subsidization of housing, regardless of location. You seem to think that means I am an elitist snob, whereas it really means I see New York City’s affordable housing programs as remarkably arbitrary and inappropriate.

Given your consistent inability or unwillingness to actually read and comprehend the above posts, I can only conclude that you do have some sort of unresolved anger issues or a learning deficit. I am not trying to be mean (and apologize if you do indeed have a learning deficit), but that is what your behavior suggests.

So, good luck with your interview. The process you are in is one I disagree with, but, to your point, it ain’t going to change. Hopefully you will be a far less boorish neighbor than you have been a member of this forum.

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Winner

You’re the one with reading comprehension issues. (Also, apologizing for a crude insult after delivering in extremely fake and is the equivalent of an “im not racist, but…statement) You’re NOT Subsidizing ANYTHING. Maybe you need to see it in action to believe it. I’m sitting in my friends apt who is a Sotheby’s realtor. Even he said “absolutely not. These developers get huge incentives (he knows quite a few of them), the biggest being air rights and tax incentives (they pay less taxes) and nothing comes out of your pocket. It has no effect on market unit rents. Market renters would pay the same regardless.” He also said you sound like an enormous dbag and your issue is personal. You don’t like that I will be getting something for less than you will. For the record, he also applied for a unit. It’s not my fault you’re a sucker who would actually pay over 3 grand for a one bedroom. You are incredibly ballsy to take credit for something you had no part of. What’s next, are you gonna crown yourself king?

David

Rent is charged to recover the cost of construction and to cover the cost of operating a building. Affordable and market rate units have the same costs. If the break even point for a unit is, say $2500, and the City caps what can be charged for an affordable unit at $1800, where do you think the $700 deficit is going to come from? You guessed it, the market rate units. Just because the developers get a break developing the units doesn’t mean their deficit is fully covered; it just means that the City gets them within striking distance of being able to make up the loss on affordable units by upcharging market rate units with in the price tolerance of the market. Also, the cost of tax breaks (revenue loss) needs to be made up elsewhere in the City’s budget, and that resuls in higher taxes for the population to cover the costs of City services/obligations. There is no free lunch, just one where the bill is so spread around it seems like it is free.

I am unsure of how your friend is able to be a realtor rubbing shoulders with the developers and still meet the income requiremens for HPS units, unless he is aggrandizing get his role at the office or is exceptionally skilled at hiding his income from the taxman.

Jamie

I wanted to address the following comment you made below:
I’m sitting in my friends apt who is a Sotheby’s realtor. Even he said “absolutely not. These developers get huge incentives (he knows quite a few of them), the biggest being air rights and tax incentives (they pay less taxes) and nothing comes out of your pocket. It has no effect on market unit rents. Market renters would pay the same regardless.”

I agree that the developers get huge incentives, but it is true that the market rate apartments will command higher rents based on the way economic principles work.

Per a NYT article entitled “Across the Hall, Diversity of Incomes” available at the following link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/realestate/across-the-hall-diversity-of-incomes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0. Please see the following quote below taken directly from the article:
“To make these projects work, developers say, the market-rate rentals have to command top dollar from the day the doors open. Although 80 percent of the apartments can be priced at the upper limits of what developers think the market will bear, they then automatically come under the rent-stabilization system, limiting how much rents can rise each year afterward.”

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Winner

I just got selected! Take that haters!

A studio for $1,567. 300 dollars more than the mortgage on a 2 bedroom house in the Queen Anne section of Seattle. Yeah, $1,567 for 450 sq foot space without a door to close. In 1992, the market rate rent for a 1 bedroom in LIC was $750.

But I’m happy. It means I get to stay in my hometown and stay close to family. I’m gonna enjoy it for a couple of years.

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Winner

I have my interview, but I’m pretty much a shoe in. I was told nothing was wrong with my application. It’s more of a lifestyle interview. I’m no wild party animal so I’m confident that I’ll be moving in soon. Yay! And seriously, stop being such a hater. It’s not a good look and causes premature aging.

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Smartypants

Please show me scientific proof that being a “hater” causes premature aging. Oh wait, you were making a funny?

ha

ha

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Guess Again

You’re right, I am such a hater that I would LOVE to move my family into an overpriced $1,500 studio apartment.

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ok....

for the record, not rich, not david, and don’t have any brats (or children).

Where do you think so many of us lived before here? Places that edged us out due to higher market rates. (and no, not Park ave. Ew.)

But we didn’t whine about the changes, the chipotles replacing our mom and pop pizza shops, or the Starbucks that took over the shoe repair place we so desperately needed. We didn’t dig our heels into “our neighborhood” complaining about those who came into it and made it more expensive, or having little temper tantrums about how it’s their fault we can no longer afford it, and that the government needs to bail us out. No. We moved.

Now it’s your turn.

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Mel

There are a lot of hard working deserving long term residents in Hunters Point who absolutely should get in! Actually Lic residents do have first dibs for affordable housing! Don’t worry your not going to pay for anyone’s rent, 80/20 is not section 8!

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David

Just because you have lived here for years does not mean you should be allowed to pay below market rent as a protected class. The neighborhood is changing, and many long term residents who were renting are going to have to move on. Pay to stay or don’t and leave – I really could care less which you choose. Just don’t ask for a handout.

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Anonymous visitor

The notion that the rich are the sole, wholesome protectors of the invisible hand of the free market, while the rest of us are scroungers taking away their money, is ludicrous.

The rich have been manipulating the “free” market in NYC for decades now and benefited handsomely from preferential treatment of real estate development policy, taxes, labor and income. The only invisible hand is the one in hucksters like David’s front pants pockets, whacking off to Adam Smith.

You want to know what a real free market is? It would be a place that actually rewarded people for the value they perform to our communities. That’s the place we used to have in NYC, and it was a far better place than the sicko environment w have today. Instead of detesting your neighbors, David, you should count your blessings that you still are able to get away with it.

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David

You misrepresent me. My objection is to people not paying full price for their apartments and then being indignant about anyone suggesting that they really don’t deserve a handout. I fail to see how that has anything to do with your Piketty-inspired rant against the fact that American labor has simply declined in value over the years.

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You are wrong

Real estate developers DO NOT pay the actual costs to build their market-rate projects — they and their suppliers and financial backers enjoy huge tax breaks and other subsidies to develop their properties. So you can argue that working- and middle-class taxpayers actually subsidize the rich in NYC, and not the other way around as you keep repeating. The wealthy buyers are also indirectly subsidized because they pay lower overall effective tax rates on their income than everyone else, and they generally work in industries protected from true free market forces because their co-conspirators in the government are always ready to bail them out with taxpayer money when they screw up. Also, there is no relationship between what they do and the pay they earn — the true value of their labor is bupkis.

David

You are wrong: I guess that is why the IRS reports that the proportion of taxes paid by the top 10% is greater than their proportion of income, but what would the IRS know about tax data? Plus, the City makes back the tax incentives through (a) transfer, title, and mansion taxes at sale and (b) the benefit increasing the pool of available market rate housing. Those that ramble about inequality are generally in denial about the erosion in the value of American labor juxtaposed with the increase in American white collar workers due to globalization.

I cannot speak to tinfoil hat mumbling about industry-government conspiracies, however. I prefer to remain grounded in reality.

Bad Karma

Dude, you’re not giving any handouts! Are you dense? Don’t flatter yourself! It’s not coming out of yours or any other taxpayer’s pocket so stop spreading misinformation. And frankly, $1986 for a one bedroom is nothing to shake your fists at. Do you think they would go ahead with the project if they weren’t gonna make any money of this?

Do you even plan on living in these buildings or do you just get a hard on shaming people? Do you realize that you are a nobody and that none of the applicants care what you say or think? Scream all you want, you won’t be heard.

Economic diversity and integration will end class segregation and combat ignorance. This is a great plan if they could sort out the infrastructure issues.

I hope my number is chosen!

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David

Do you think that the units the developers are earmarking for affordable housing cost half as much to construct as a market rate unit? That is the only way that the money would not come out of either a taxpayer’s pocket (hello tax break) or a market-rate renter’s pocket (hello passing costs on to consumers). If something is being sold/rented below the market rate, the deficit is being made up somewhere, ergo, a handout is being given.

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New Leadership

It’s people like Ok and David (basically and probably the same awful person) that have changed the vibe in small NYC communities like LIC. Once down to earth, cozy, neighborhoods where everyone cared about the well being and benefit of ALL have become overrun by selfish, bourgeois, “new money”, “I can’t afford to live on Park Ave with Koch brothers, so I’ll assert my superiority in queens”, types that think they’re better than the locals because they chose a different career path. Well if we all thought and did as David does, what a boring world this would be. Personally, I’m not opposed to development, but I am opposed to overdevelopment. I don’t think we need new developments until we can sort out transportation, schooling, healthcare facility and space issues. However, developers have FINALLY given back to the community that welcomed them and constructed 2 buildings that will house middle class people who help run this city. But because the teacher who babysits your god awful brats makes 60K while the dbag in finance makes 600K, David believes the teacher is not as deserving or hard working or worthy of a 650 Sq foot apartment. Perhaps he’d like to snatch it away from them like a fat bully snatches a candy bar from a smaller child?? I bet he’d enjoy that. David won’t change and that’s ok. But the beauty of this situation is that we get these apts whether he likes it or not and while he can hide behind his keyboard and bully us on social media, there’s not a darn thing he can do about it at the end of the day. Rise above it and continue to fight for economic diversity and diversity in general.

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ok....

for the record, not rich, not David, and don’t have any brats (or children).

Where do you think so many of us lived before here? Places that edged us out due to higher market rates. (and no, not Park ave. Ew.)

But we didn’t whine about the changes, the chipotles replacing our mom and pop pizza shops, or the Starbucks that took over the shoe repair place we so desperately needed. We didn’t dig our heels into “our neighborhood” complaining about those who came into it and made it more expensive, or having little temper tantrums about how it’s their fault we can no longer afford it, and that we were here first so we should get first dibs and the government needs to bail us out. No. We moved.

Now it’s your turn.

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ok....

for the record, not rich, not david, and don’t have any brats (or children).

Where do you think so many of us lived before here? Places that edged us out due to higher market rates. (and no, not Park ave. Ew.)

But we didn’t whine about the changes, the chipotles replacing our mom and pop pizza shops, or the Starbucks that took over the shoe repair place we so desperately needed. We didn’t dig our heels into “our neighborhood” complaining about those who came into it and made it more expensive, or having little temper tantrums about how it’s their fault we can no longer afford it, and that we get first dibs cause we were here first, and the government needs to bail us out. No. We moved.

Now it’s your turn.

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David

New Leadership, you denigrate this forum with ad hominem attacks, painting caricatures of commenters as Leftist boogeymen, and calling cogent thought bullying.

So, let me try one more time to explain how money works. Let’s say that you make a widget that takes an hour to produce. You also make a deluxe widget that takes two hours to produce, but is more efficient for the user. You price the regular one at $10 and the deluxe at $25, because (a) it took longer to make and (b) generates more value for the end user.

Now, some well meaning Comrade like our Mayor comes along and says “How horrible that everyone doesn’t have the deluxe widget. I will create an affordable widgets program to rectify this unacceptable wrong”. So he creates a program whereby widget makers have to allocate a certain number of their deluxe widgets as affordable widgets. In exchange, they are allowed to expand their warehouse on their own dime.

The manufacturers see an opportunity to expand production, so they expand their warehouse, but, between the cost of the warehouse and the loss on the affordable deluxe widgets, they have to raise the cost of all widgets for their market rate buyers.

This is essentially what is happening. It would be great if everyone could live in a wonderful apartment minutes from their jobs, that is not how the world works. You have to earn money to pay for what you want, and some apartments cost more than others. Why should I pay double for my apartment at market rate just because I make more money?

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Bad Karma

The market rate apartments at Hunter’s Point South are going for the SAME EXACT price as the apts in 100% market rate buildings up and down Center blvd. (Around $2700 for a 1 bedroom?) No more, no less. Nobody is subsidizing anything. If sharing an elevator with a fireman or police officer is not your thing, stay in Avalon Riverview South!

And to ‘OK’: NO! I won’t be moving. Tough titties if you don’t like it. What are you gonna do about it?? Nuthin!

Long-time residents and native NYers welcomed the developments and accepted these drastic changes. It’s only right that they throw us a bone and create apts that everyone can afford. This needs to be a city for everyone, not just those who make six figures and up.

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David

The impact on rent will not be seen on a building by building basis. It will be seen across all the buildings in the neighborhood. One will push a bit higher, then others will follow, albeit at a more favorable margin. The aggregate impact of affordable units is seen across the market. I also would not be surprised if rents on renewals were not more aggressively pushed.

To your point about a bone, what have you done to earn one? Show up and complain? Be an entitlement brat? Eventually you will be priced out, if not on rent then on the prices at local businesses as commercial rents go up. Will you demand affordable restaurants and supermarkets then?

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Bad Karma

What have I done to earn one? LOL, attention everyone, it seems that David here is the deciding factor in who gets these mixed income units so we all owe him an explanation as to how deserving we are as well as how and where we spend our money. David, working so hard, on LIC Post. So deserving.

David

No, Bad karma, you earn a roof over your head by making money and paying market rate. Otherwise, there are some benches on the Vernon Mall, should you really need to bed down for the night in Hunters Point.

You have failed to justify the existence of affordable housing units. The NYC real estate market would be much better off if distorting programs like affordable housing, rent stabilization, and rent control were rolled back. You have, however, demonstrated that you are unwilling to pay your own way and want special treatment just for being you. I would bet money you are probably in a union as well.

Bad Karma

Oh no! I have “failed to prove” my worth in David’s opinion. How will I ever go on????

Oh I know. I’ll just keep living my life, going to work (no, not union) and fighting the good fight to keep the good middle class people of Queens in this neighborhood. Here’s to more mixed income buildings on the rise!

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David

Actually, you failed on reading comprehension. Why am I not surprised?

Have fun fighting to pull the neighborhood back into a long distant past. I trust you are well acquainted with tilting at windmills.

yikes

actually, they aren’t going for the same price as market rate apts on the water. Check this article from Gothamist, the AVG 1 bed price in LIC is currently $3,000, and that is the average, so likely taking into account the walk-ups available on vernon, etc, in addition to the waterfront towers. so.. yea

might help the market rate renters with their next move when this housing stuff raises their rents to even more absurd levels! Just heard a friend at Avalon South got their renewal lease in the mail, with a 35% increase! Thanks HPS!

http://gothamist.com/2015/02/17/real_estate_maps_despair.php

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Bad Karma

The 2700 figure was a guess because that’s what they were last time I looked. But good grief, I just took a look at 4545 Center blvd (a 100% market rate building btw) and a 1 bedroom costs $3,379. wtf???? And this is the price they’ve been charging and there is no affordable housing in the area yet. So I don’t understand why you’re thanking HPS. Market rate apts are allowed to raise the rent at very high percentages because they’re not subject to rent stabilization. This was going on long before HPS was even a thought.

Why do they think this apt is worth that? There’s no eat-in kitchen or dining area, it’s a hike from the subway and closet space is minimal. It’s also very small.

http://4545centerblvd.com/?leasing=now-leasing

New Leadership

Separate but equal is not equal. And David is the kind of “new money”, “cant afford to live on Park Ave with the Koch brothers so ill pretend to be better than the middle class in queens”, bourgeois [insert name], that has led to the assassination of character and originality in this city and in LIC. David, you win. There are good people who’ve lived in this neighborhood for decades and if your solution is to drive them out because they make 60K as opposed to 600K, no problem. Just don’t follow us to the next “up and coming” neighborhood.

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Jo

In response to an earlier post, if everyone actually was paid according to the value they generate then teachers would earn more than the rest of us so clearly that is not necessarily the case.
This actually all seems like an unnecessary argument. HPS was always planned by the City as a mixed-income development. While the units are “affordable” there is a wide range of rents based on income and the lost income/rent units represent a relatively small percentage of the total # – a good portion are not so far from market rate. And as far as property values go, I would argue that HPS park, an amenity that we all enjoy (I love walking through it en route to the ferry in the morning), does a lot toward increasing the desirability of the area. And that park was part of the overall plan that depended on the housing piece. Related won a competitive RFP to develop publicly owned land that was just sitting underutilized and while there are likely financial complexities that I don’t fully understand, it doesn’t really seem like this development is hurting anyone. If anything, it will help the local businesses – I’m always worried that my favorite restaurants on Vernon will close as they rarely seem crowded by many of the current LIC residents who often dine in Manhattan. Just a thought…

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David

If the affordable units were the reason for HPS Park, then why is there waterfront park along the river by the market rate units to the north? Maybe developers agree that this is an amenity that raises rent potential.

The market determines value denominated in skill supply and, while competent educators are of high value, the supply of people who can serve as a teacher to our current albeit inadequate expectation (essentially daycare worker) is high. There is also nonmonetary compensation through benefits, work-life balance, and job satisfaction that makes up a total compensation package.

The City should not be in the game of dictating which neighborhoods house which income residents. It certainly should not be in the game of trying to force mixed income areas to suit a Leftist fantasy of everyone living the same together. Mixing income can actually make it more difficult for local businesses, since their customer base becomes so fragmented.

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ok....

I am also curious to know how people who cannot afford to pay full market rent in this neighborhood would be able to afford to support local businesses. Quite honestly, if you cannot afford to pay market rent, but CAN afford to eat at the likes of Shi or Alobar, etc then I think you need a financial management course far more than you need someone else to subsidize your rent.

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David

That, or they are exceptionally capable of hiding income/getting paid off the books, further shifting tax burden to the rest of us.

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Licfan

Don’t get me wrong, I moved to NY many years ago and lived in Washington Heights, where I could afford to live on my salary. Then lived in the Bronx and Astoria when I decided this was the only way to save money to eventually move closer to work – downtown Manhattan.Finally, I lived in Meatpacking before Highline because I could afford it. When I moved here, t’was because I can afford it. How/why should someone expect to live in prime real estate when they cannot afford it – just doesn’t make sense.

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ok....

I can (eventually) get over the fact that I am subsidizing other people’s rent, for no reason and with no choice, all because I work for a living.

However, if the influx of more people to the 7 line causes it to be even more inefficient and crowded than it is, I will be late for work. This will cause me to be unable to fund your below market rate luxury apartment that is probably nicer than my totally market rate apartment, because I will not be able to make it to my job which pays the salary that the government taxes to fund your waterfront view.

so yeah – good luck, hope you win the apt lottery, but if you hope to stay in that apartment, that you don’t deserve, make sure the market rate apt renters can make it to work on time.

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New Leadership

You are confusing this model of housing with Section 8. You’re not subsidizing anything so please don’t feel so important. Please educate yourself on the differences between public housing and inclusionary housing which is what the Hunter’s Point South developments are:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greggfairbrothers/2013/07/11/affordable-housing-how-the-public-and-private-are-working-together-entrepreneurially/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidized_housing

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New Leadership

“We are intrigued by the idea of building affordable housing in the heart of one of the nation’s most expensive and vibrant real estate markets—Manhattan—using ONLY PRIVATE FUNDING RESOURCES.”

key words from the article

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David

At the end of the day, it is the same thing. Money is not being made, and the deficit is going to come from somewhere. Even the notion of granting air-rights in exchange for higher density reflects the state demanding value from a landowner.

“Inclusionary housing” (what a PC term – I love it) is something I’d rather not see money being wasted on. Why should I care about economic diversity in the neighborhood? I’d rather see a homogeneous wealthy neighborhood that would drive up the value of my unit.

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Licfan

I want an affordable apartment across from the Met and next to Central Park. I also want an affordable BMW and, while we’re at it, I want affordable meals at Le Bernardin. I can’t believe this $&@?

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David

Actually, the going rate for morons’ opinions I’d 2¢. But I don’t think that Licfan’s point is moronic. Moronic is grunting insults to argument you cannot rebut. Where might I send your 2¢, or should I put it to a rent subsidy?

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Yea

So clever. U must feel awefully proud of ur incredibly constructed and crafted remark. Keep the cash joe. U need it more.

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Jamie

I would love to get a brand new Ferrari for the price of a 2014 M5 BMW. I wonder why the Ferrari dealerships don’t provide opportunities for people to live the dream. LOL

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Jamie

Hi,

I would love to get a brand new Ferrari for the price of a 2014 M5 BMW. I wonder why the Ferrari dealerships don’t provide opportunities for people to live the dream. LOL

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Steph

I applied and got to view the ones in Queens Plaza last year but never got offered an apartment after months of hoping and waiting. And this one is going to be even harder to get into.

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ME!

boo. i pay for this. and i wasn’t selected. boohoo.
ME.
ME. ME. MEMEMEMEME.
M E. ME. I’m important and i wan’t my money and i don’t wanna share it and i don’t want you moving here if you pay less then me. Because ME.

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Anonymous visitor

And what have you done to earn some of my money? If you would like to extend your attitude to yourself, perhaps you can pay an extra 15% on your tax return. Didn’t think so…all mouth and no action.

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ME!

I pay my taxes, just like you. I earn my check just like you. I pay for my apartment just like you.

I consider myself fortunate to be able to do this.

I understand that there are a need for many individuals to hold positions that might not pay as well as my own. I also understand these people should be able to live a reasonable distance from where they work.

I don’t know. Maybe I’m stupid for thinking that once my immediate needs are taken care of (I have a roof over my head), I’m all for my money being used to help others.

I guess maybe I should put myself in front of everyone else like you, because at the end of the day all that matters is MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.

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ME!

I go to work, just like you.

I pay my taxes, just like you.

I pay for my apartment in the neighborhood just like you.

I consider myself fortunate to be in this situation.

It’s not YOUR city. There’s a bunch of people doing honest work that don’t make enough to pay $2,300 for 400 sq ft of shoddy new construction. Why should they be forced to travel great distances to provide you with services you take for granted. Everyone that contributes to this city should be able to live within a decent distance of the area they serve. LIC has the land, the city needs to put up affordable housing. I’m so sorry you’ll have to circle around the block a few more times looking for places to park your SUV. It must be all these poors digging in your pockets that keep you from being able to pony up the $250 a month for a garage.

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David

You have to pay your way, and you get paid according to the value you generate. Sometimes you don’t make enough to have everything be convenient, but that is the way of the world. If you don’t like it, then move, find another job, or plunk down and feel sorry for yourself.

Oh, and I don’t own a car, so it would be all those people clogging the 7 train.

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ME!

take your own advice and make some more money so you can purchase a car to prevent you from having to ride the 7 with the poors.

if you don’t want the burden of parking, take a car service. if you had a half decent job and anyone valued you, your company would surely foot the bill.

David

I am soooo special.

I am so special that I should get a steak when I pay for a Big Mac.

I am so special that I deserve a new BMW when I pay for a used Honda.

I am so special that I should get a tax credit when I pay no taxes.

I am so special that I should have a river view minutes from Manhattan and pay Jamaica rent.

I am so special that my new neighbors should thank me for moving in.

I am so special that I deserve a part of your paycheck for no reason whatsoever.

I am so special that society hasn’t figured out how to pay me for my greatness.

I am so special that I should get an award for just being me.

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Roy

There goes the neighborhood. Parking will be extra brutal, the part will be more crowded than ever, and so on.

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AG

This whole thing is nonsense. I submitted my application the first day and was assigned a log number of over 92,000. According to NY Housing Connect lower log numbers have a better chance of being contacted. The whole thing just seems cruel.

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LICworker12

I submitted the first hour applications were available. For some stupid reason, they did not recognize the City Agency I work for as a Municipal Agency (news to the 500+ people I work with!), so my number is over 66,000. I should have been in the next group being interviewed! My hopes are dashed, because of a stupid clerical error.

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David

Yippee! HPD is making it rain for 924 lucky winners. Too bad this wasted money is coming out of my pocket.

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New Leadership

How exactly is it coming your of your pocket? Do you really think you would be charged less in rent fees if the building was 100% market rate? Get real. The developers and management company is getting the benefit here. They’re charging you what they would even if the building were totally market rate AND they’re getting the tax break for building the affordable housing. It’s a sham. But, if you’re so bothered by it, there are 15 other totally market rate buildings to choose from. Go live in one them.

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David

Maybe you should read up on economics. Affordable units distort the market, reducing supply in a given area and increasing rent. And let’s not forget the cost of administering the program and the tax break. Then let’s add in the reduction in property values in the neighborhood. Maybe you should live within your means instead of asking taxpayers in market rate units to bail you out.

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LIC Res

Affordable units are built in exchange for allowances of higher density. If anything, they enable a greater housing supply. Reading up on planning policy might be more useful than the ‘dismal science,’ in this case.

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David

The supply reduction still stands, even if additional density is allowed. This is because the infrastructure can only sustain a certain population before being overloaded. Given that we are near capacity for the LIC infrastructure as is, building more affordable units is in fact reducing supply of market-rate units. All the policy is doing is collecting units onto a smaller plot of land, not increasing overall supply (and giving a handout to people). You also fail to address the other costs, ie, program cost and reduction in potential property value.

LICeater

That LIC infrastructure is ‘near capacity’ is unsubstantiated. Further, there is no evidence developers share this opinion, and would consequently refuse to build the maximum allowed density. Lastly there is no evidence infrastructure cannot be scaled to accommodate a significantly higher population (as evidenced by track work to expand 7 train capacity, for instance).

I don’t take exception to your viewpoint, just the assumptions affordable units necessarily reduce supply and that our infrastructure cannot be expanded.

David

LICeater – I agree on the potential to expand infrastructure, but between the 7 extension and the 2nd Ave subway, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

LICeater

David, Im also LIC Res, an old screen name default-loaded.

Extremely fair point re 7 extension and the 2nd Ave subway: can you even argue infrastructure is scalable, if the scaling effort is so far behind population growth as to merely maintain a steady state of obsolescence? It would be tough.

Cheers.

Anonymous visitor

A full topographic & subsurface survey, contracted by the DDC, is presently underway to evaluate the state of the Hunters Point infrastructure for future development. The project area is bound by 44th Drive to the north, Jackson Ave to the east, Borden Ave to the south, and 5th St to the west.

Expect plans for several affordable waterfront housing projects to be released with the next phase of the Hunters Point South Park development. Court square will be seeing this sooner.

Most of this is common knowledge as so many long term projects city agencies are now overlapping. DDC, DEP, Parks Dept & others are the sharp end of the HPS spear, so feel free to follow up with them. If you’re bored, stop by Queens Borough Hall and start pulling records 🙂

New Leadership

Nobody’s property value has been reduced in LIC. At all! I grew up here and my family’s property value continues to sky rocket. Also, the “affordable housing” developments are 80/20. Only 20% of the units are on the sliding scale. 80% are market. And you clearly didn’t read what I wrote. Even if you took the measly 20% away from people because of the type of human being you are, you would not pay less for your market rate apartment in the same building. Your management company would NOT reduce your rent, because the nurse down the hall moved out. Is that any clearer??

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David

It is not 80/20. If that were the case, then there would be a total of 2460 units in these two buildings. It is, as I understand, more like 40/60, favoring subsidized units, but I could be wrong.

In terms of the rate of rent, removing one unit from affordable housing would have a negligible impact, granted. But there are thousands of units here and in the City that are rent controlled – many more grotesquely than these in HPS. That will distort the market. While Hunter’s Point has increased dramatically in value, affordable units blunt the over value of the area. Just the stigmatization of being next to an affordable housing building can take percentage points off the value of a condo or rental.

In terms of the “type of human being” I am, I think you should pay your own way in the world, not ask for a hand out. Why should a lottery winner get a couple thousand a month for their apartment vs a lottery loser?

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Jamie

Can you please provide references to substantiate your statements because my understanding is that market rate rents are higher as a result of these types of 80/20 developments.

Please see the following quote from a New York Times article:
“To make these projects work, developers say, the market-rate rentals have to command top dollar from the day the doors open. Although 80 percent of the apartments can be priced at the upper limits of what developers think the market will bear, they then automatically come under the rent-stabilization system, limiting how much rents can rise each year afterward.” The article can be accessed online at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/realestate/across-the-hall-diversity-of-incomes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0.

Reply

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